Come forth all unbelievers of the blessed Possessor of the Matrix and heed the following lesson. The lesson being that the grand Optimus Prime is much more worthy of worship than the Christian God. You doubt this statement? Then read on and discover for yourself why this is so!
Optimus Prime does not demand worship
There are quite numerous instances in the Bible where God demands that people worship him, both in the Old and New Testaments. When this does not occur in the manner he prescribes, the usual result is mass unpleasantness of one sort or another – global scale death, pestilences, threats of eternal damnation, etc. Optimus Prime does not demand worship and does not care if you worship anyone or anything else; as long as you don’t cause grief for others, he’s fine with your choice.
Optimus Prime does not send anyone to eternal torture
As previously noted, the Christian God will allow you to be tortured for eternity if you do not believe in him – and not just that, you also have to believe in his son. If you fail to live by his standards, even when they contradict each other, then you happen to be pretty much screwed. God certainly has the ability to save every single person from hell at any instant it might take his fancy but he refuses to. Optimus Prime does not hold with any sort of eternal damnation and, as noted, does not demand any one lives by arbitrary rules based on his own ego
Optimus Prime has better guidelines for living your life
If you happen to look at how Optimus Prime lives his life and the teachings he shares with those around him, you can see this his ‘commandments‘ are better than those of the Christian God. There is no requirement to worship Optimus Prime for starters nor is it mandatory to take a day off and basically waste an entire day (even in regard to leisure activities or household chorse). Instead all Optimus guides us to is to be respectful to everyone else, use your intelligence in all things and do not waste your life.
Optimus Prime does not discriminate and believes in freedom
‘Freedom is the right of all sentient beings‘. Optimus Prime does not care if you are a homosexual, he does not care if you do not believe in him, he does not care if you eat the wrong things on certain days. As long as your lifestyle choices do not harm or cause grief to other people, Optimus Prime is happy with however you choose to live your life.
Optimus Prime has a better track record in overcoming death
The Bible contains a story where an aspect of the Christian God overcomes death a grand total of once. Optimus Prime has died and rise considerably more times than that. He died in Transformers: The Movie (1986) and returned in ‘Dark Awakening‘ only to sacrifice himself and then return in ‘The Return of Optimus Prime‘. Optimus also dies in Transformers #24 (US, series 1) only to return in a new body in Transformers #42 (US, series 1). In Transformers #75 (US, series 1) Optimus Prime sacrifices himself to destroy Unicron (cosmic evil demi-god) and returns in Transformers #80 (US, series 1). In Transformers: Generation 2 #12, Optimus Prime sacrifices his life so that an alien swarm might learn what peace is only to return in that same issue. For more information (and more deaths/resurrections), see The many deaths of Optimus Prime.
Optimus Prime actively combats evil
The Christian God does one of two things when it comes to combat. He either lets others do his fighting for him (see the almost continual warfare carried out by his chosen people throughout the Old Testament) or he lets an aspect of himself walk around and talk alot – which does not exactly constitute combatting evil. The first option is a cop-out, he could have gotten directly involved but chose not to – even letting his own people lose on occassion when they did not follow one silly rule (eg, hold this stick up in the air for no apparent reason) or another. The second really achieved nothing at all and could even be considered a waste of time since much more productive courses of action were clearly available (Instead of being tempted by evil in the desert, how about destroying it with your supposedly omnipotent power? That would have saved everyone a whoooole lot of grief). Optimus Prime, on the other hand, does not like combat and violence but realises that sometimes it is necessary to stop worse atrocities. He is often seen personally leading his loyal followers into combat, letting the forces of evil know he means business through the liberal application of considerable firepower.
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Optimus is just a lame copycat, he just read the bible, that’s all…
I would say that the Disciples heard about the wonder that is Optimus Prime and changed the details a bit to suit their own ends. Optimus Prime works in mysterious ways!
I also note you didn’t refute any of the points made. Interesting!
Why would I spend all my energon on this? I am not playing by your rules…
ok, just to keep you busy. one question then….
Who was there first?
Optimus was drawn in the 80’s
So, where do you think the creators of Optimus got their info… Hey? it might be from something like christianity/buhdism
as I said, just copy paste..
Going by your logic, Horus is more likely to be real than Jesus since he came along first. Where did they get the story of Jesus from? Oh … copy and paste from various other religious stories that came along first.
Does horus still have a religion? After 8000 yrs of the stories and history of monotheism, it is still alive and kicking. Religion can only survive if there is something essential in it, if it rings true. If people thought it was a fraud, they would have left it for what it was. since that is not the case, try again.
Religions comes and go, as seen throughout human history. The ancient egyptian pantheon worship, for example, last a few thousand years – which is longer than christianity has thus far.
Ancient Egyptian religion only lasted 3000 years. the total of (judaism)God is now up to 8000 years(and most likely even more), and that is only from the written form that we know of. The problem with history that we start to wrap some conclusions around things where we don’t have a broad source of information from. Most argumentation makes sense in a logical way, and that can be good to a certain point, but it is not a end to itself. It can only be that if you want it to, but that would mean that it is not openminded argumentation. You always have to stay open for new information and new insights.
For example, God could have been there even before the first writings of the Tanakh. Just because we have no direct evidence of that doesn’t mean that it was not there. And still it is not essential to faith. at least, not to me. Faith is built on relation with the Creator/Father. That makes it relevant for me today, in the here and now. That is what motivates me to do my best in and for this world in every aspect of life.
Hinduism’s been around way longer than Judaism. Don’t tell me you think Hinduism is a valid belief.
The first half tries to make an argument from longevity which really doesn’t get you far. Most of human history can be regarded as one of extreme ignorance and their beliefs were based on that ignorance, including religion.
The second seems to be an appeal from personal experience which also doesn’t count as much of an argument.
The first half tries to make an argument from longevity which really doesn’t get you far.
It get’s me far enough, and this is not a really good argument from you either.
Most of human history can be regarded as one of extreme ignorance and their beliefs were based on that ignorance, including religion.
I won’t dispute ignorance since it is you who is doing the same thing.
Your lack of at least showing some respect and dignity does not help any of your argumentation either.
An argument from longevity doesn’t get you anywhere, so it does you no good. It’s a debate fallacy for a very good reason.
And how am I dealing in ignorance, exactly?
And no, I will not show respect for a viewpoint that can not even generate a coherent argument to support it. Hence why I show no respect for such things as scientology.
“And how am I dealing in ignorance, exactly?”
To think you are the only one on earth who has all the right answers if they can only be proven by science. Your failure and fallacy to not even think outside the (science)box is just an example, or to show no respect to those who do.
Hence why I show no respect for such things as scientology.
Even I don’t agree with the idea of scientology, but I do love the people as if they were my brother and sister. And in that I do hope that they might relate to God even in their own way of life or find a new way to do so.
An argument from longevity doesn’t get you anywhere, so it does you no good. It’s a debate fallacy for a very good reason.
goes both ways
Your logic is extremely faulty. Let’s assume we go with your reasoning and things which aren’t demonstrated through evidence and/or test and/or predictions. That means that belief is any sort of mythological figure, deity, creature, legend, fictional being, etc is now 100% respectable and validated.
Your belief in a god is now on an equal footing with someone’s belief that he’s Napoleon reincarnated or that he needs to wear a tin foil hat to stop aliens reading his mind.
Evidence is extremely important because, to put it very bluntly and simply, it keeps the stupid at bay.
Your second comment makes no sense since I’m not making any arguments from longevity, I’m actually doing the opposite.
Matt, It doesn’t help to keep on attacking my reasoning since it’s only your logic. I do concur that reason is important, but is not an end to itself. I think logic can get you pretty far, but it still remains the position of subjectivity from the author and receiver no matter how tested the subject is. Your stand makes only sense within a certain community that abides with the rules that they make. So that group calls that reality, and to certain amount I will hardly disagree. The subject of the matter might be giving an outcome that can draw several conclusions, but it is the observer that makes the decision. And if you just create conditions and reasons without God in any given way, you will find it(wysiwyg). In that sense the words of your logic ring empty and dull.
If you look at it with God, you will find it, even within and beyond the boundaries of science. For example the chemistry in your brain and body is just chemistry in a complex form. But the result is that you feel attraction, that you see beauty, that you have needs urges, that you (as sole being) decipher what is wrong and right. You can see it within only the boundaries of chemistry, and chaos, but the results that we can choose to love or to hate, to find fellowship or look for offense are there nonetheless. Your conclusions and identity are based on what you hope, what you know and what you think is right. But are you actually capable of doing that? Only if you feel the need to be more than you can be, only if you have a certain goal.
If your goal is to deconstruct, which I think it assumes, than that leaves nothing more than emptiness and shallow use of bold words without any meaning.
So, does scientific logic have an answer for a starving child? No! Only love, compassion and care have the capability to do that. That ultimate “reality” is in itself not of science nor of individual reason. The identity that I link to God and Christ and the knowing of being led by the Holy spirit fills my heart with compassion, makes me aware of the lack/selfishness in myself to become more and willing to change. The ability to do that and live like that In Him makes it so much more valuable. Which is not intent to boast but to stay humble.
The whole essence of the bible is not about judgment and condemnation, it is about change to become fully alive and doing good. Becoming alive In freedom, in love, in community, in embracing, in enjoying. And I think you have missed that in the time that you were a brother in Christ.
That in itself does have nothing to do with science, but it has everything to do with life and how you perceive it to be.
Your last reply contained no arguments and only rambling that bordered on the incoherent. Certain passages such as “If you look at it with God, you will find it, even within and beyond the boundaries of science” denote a distinct lack of understanding of logic and scientific method – you can not try to prove the existence of something with the viewpoint that it already exists. That is a terrible, terrible way of investigating things and certainly not how science does things.
The second half of your comment seems to be a strange mix of appeals from personal experience and incredulity, neither of which stand up as any sort of argument. It does not matter if belief in god makes you feel good; fuzzy warm feelings do not validate the claim of god’s existence. People have received such feelings from all manner of deities, beliefs and even types of food throughout history.
you said: “…denote a distinct lack of understanding of logic and scientific method – you can not try to prove the existence of something with the viewpoint that it already exists. That is a terrible, terrible way of investigating things and certainly not how science does things.”
It is not a terrible way, it is just not your way. I don’t think that science on itself should be in any way directly influenced by faith. but the conclusions that come with it may be still another answer. As I said several times before, I don’t follow your rules of logic. Since they are just ONE way of perceiving life.
Even so science does still support in many ways my view of life and my faith. And still since you don’t believe in God does not make it an immediate truth. that’s just the chemicals in your brain messing with ya. (joke)
you said: “It does not matter if belief in god makes you feel good; fuzzy warm feelings do not validate the claim of god’s existence. People have received such feelings from all manner of deities, beliefs and even types of food throughout history.”
Ah, so you now claim to say that throughout the world and throughout history people are having experience of higher beings… Interesting. Funny that billions of people believe in “God” in some sort of way. But they are all wrong and dumb because Matt and his so called supreme logic know best. Continue mister spok…
I just don’t see you make this a better world with your logic… At least try to convince me otherwise in a case that does make sense.
You know what Matt. I must confess it has been interesting to have been arguing with you but I guess we’ll just have to see what really did matter in the end. Chasing tails..
I will let you be in peace. I have no more interest in your talk. not because I feel victorious or defeated in any way. I’m just not going to go what you think is the right and only way. IF your logic sets you free then so be it. Be content with what you know and stop rubbing it into other peoples faces because that makes you just like the evangelical fundies. Which in that case you do have something in common with them.
Of course it’s a terrible way. Creationist (and yours apparently) thinking is to start off with a conclusion and look for evidence to support it – which is insanely silly and counter-productive. It leads to all manner of mistaken findings since you can attributes evidence to pretty much anything you want to when you work with such a bizarre method.
It’s not strange at all. Throughout history, people have been remarkably ignorant of how the universe worked and thus had to make up stories and reasons why it did what it did (classic god of the gaps stuff). The ancient egyptians, for example, had no idea why the sun moved through the sky so made up a story that it was Ra and his firey chariot.
Just 3 things:
1. I agree.
2. Optimus is my God.
3. You rock dude.
It scares me that there are people like martijn still around in this day and age. And it scares me that people (ie matt) who have a healthy skepticism, reliance on fact, and a respectful tolerance to their intellectual inferiors are being treated with such condescension. Especially when it’s painfully obvious that pseudo-religious nuts cannot argue any points rationally, but rather rely on personal feelings, attributing fate to blind chance, and shamelessly attributing an individuals moral integrity as divine intervention and not free will.
Lemme spell it out for you, Jesus Junkie. Your personal ‘make beliefs’ are just that. Personal. But it’s funny how often they’re aired in public. Any mix of pseudo-spirituality, asinine examples of proof, and smug dismissals like ‘oh, that’s just your opinion’ that you put forward as arguments are not going to be always treated by us heathens worshiping a metallic god with as much patience as matt did. And using a website to passive aggressively celerbrate your spiritual superiority as a final answer to us all, well, Hitler had a final answer too, eh? Shame on you for destroying the brief pleasure I felt reading the comparison of a giant battle robot to a religious figure. Especially when, if you think about it, a robot messiah arriving intergalactically is more plausible than christ ‘returning.’
If there are religious types out there who disagree, I don’t want your arguments. I want your silence.
Just a point to Martijn if he ever reads, why would you need something higher than you to love others? Isn’t that something that should be done without a divine guidance? / Respectfully from a loving Atheist